East - West
I had an interesting conversation with Souris coming back after having been AFK for a bit, about Germany:
Souris: . . . and ended up watching a piece on a German news show we get here
Souris: Well, since my last comment, anyway
Panthere: Oh, what news program?
Souris: I forget the name of the show. Das W...?
Souris: The initials are DW :P
Panthere: Deutsche Welle is the sender.
Souris: It was a piece on what you and another friend: were talking about the other day, how Germany is still divided
Souris: That's the one
Panthere: Hm, you don't know if there is a transcript of that available anywhere, do you?
Souris: No, but I can tell you what you wish to know
Panthere: Please.
Souris: It was just a short piece, ~5 minutes or so, and I came in after it had started. The central topic was, of course, how the west is paying for the east's reconstruction
Panthere: Which is true.
Souris: It briefly interviewed a few patrons at an Eastern sports club, I think, complaining about being out of work. Which led them to believe that it was the west's fault (not enough funds, you know the mind set)
Panthere: Well, they came from a culture where they weren't very free, but relatively secure, which they aren't anymore at all.
Souris: Shortly afterwards, it mentioned how the west isn't doing so great, either, due to business being offered subsidies to set up in poorer regions (such as anywheresville, east Germany).
Panthere: And West Germans resent that naturally, plus having to pay higher taxes and such.
Souris: A brief focus was made on Dresden, which is apparently being made into a showcase for the east. There's a lot of companies setting up there and it's doing better than some western areas (mention was made to some valley area, twice, but I didn't catch the name)
Souris: And yes, the resentment was touched upon, again with the sports club. They mentioned how they didn't feel welcome in the west when visiting away games
Souris: One of the patrons said quite openly that everyone would be better off with the wall back. You won't hear that viewpoint in western coverage :P
Souris: Western world, in that case
Panthere: Oh yes, you hear it from West Germans, too.
Souris: *nods* It must be mutual. I don't know how western Germany can put up with their situation... East Germany and the EU...
Panthere: And it's true, most West Germans aren't very welcoming to Easterners; they feel they're slackers who live of them.
Souris: Anyway, apart from a general overview of the problems resulting from the fall of the wall, they also had a sensible man give the reason for it
Panthere: Well, the rise of extremist parties in the last election is an indicator that people get fed up, I think.
Souris: That is, that Western Germany had 4+ decades to rebuild from the war, and Eastern Germany can't possibly expect the same standards after a mere quarter of that time
Souris: Hmm... That would be a good explanation for it, Miss
Souris: So, the news piece was very brief, but enlightening nonetheless
Panthere: I can explain what the cause for it all is, in one short sentence: That idiot former chancellor Kohl's ego mania.
Souris: Oh?
Panthere: Now shall I elaborate in more detail?
Souris: I'll need a few more sentences, yes :)
Panthere: What is/was basically the biggest mistake is that the decision for re-unification wasn't based on economical and social evaluation of the situation, but on political egotism: the not very intelligent "Birne" (so called based on his body-shape, though unlike a pear very wobbly :P) wanted to go down in history as the "Re-unification Chancellor."
Panthere: The person who had, after 45 years, "made Germany into one country again."
Souris: Ohhh... :(
Souris: Well, he'll go down in history, all right, if not how he schemed...
Panthere: But even at that time, economists and sociologists and a whole other bunch of assorted scientists were warning that a hasty reunification would backfire, as it has obviously done.
Souris: Far from being one country, it looks to me like Germany is going to need another 3 decades, at least, to make much progress
Panthere: The smart way - and most proposed way then, by non-politically allied thinkers - to have done that would have been through a long term plan, which would have allow a loose political association, while the economic systems of both parts would only gradually merge.
Panthere: That would have East German companies allowed to temporarily take advantage of lower standards for example in regards to environmental laws, and it would have allowed them to *slowly* switch from an all human workforce to the Western level of automatization.
Panthere: The latter leading not only to huge layoffs but to even bigger dept, if they could afford to go on operating at all and didn't have to close down for good.
Souris: Hmm... It sounds like that would've caused a great deal of unrest in the east, anyway?
Panthere: It would also have allowed subsidized housing to continue as it was in the East, and guaranteed kinder garden places, for example (which I think they West should copy - women were in several ways better of in East Germany than West Germany, where some rights were concerned.)
Panthere: It caused a great deal of dissatisfaction everywhere.
Souris: True...
Panthere: Naturally, there wasn't any great market for East German goods in the West, but it had a large part of the Eastern market - East Germany was the economical engine of the former Eastblock as much as West Germany was for Western Europe, only the economical level was different -
Panthere: and in a slower approach Western exports to the East (all of it, not just East Germany) could have been limited to support East German production for the adjustment period.
Panthere: Naturally, there is a great more stuff concerned than I can all list now, but there were viable suggestions on how to lower the reunification pain by spreading it out over time. But since 20 years from then Kohl wouldn't have been Chancellor anymore, he trashed them all.
Panthere: Again a case of millions suffering for one man's egotism.
Souris: . . . and ended up watching a piece on a German news show we get here
Souris: Well, since my last comment, anyway
Panthere: Oh, what news program?
Souris: I forget the name of the show. Das W...?
Souris: The initials are DW :P
Panthere: Deutsche Welle is the sender.
Souris: It was a piece on what you and another friend: were talking about the other day, how Germany is still divided
Souris: That's the one
Panthere: Hm, you don't know if there is a transcript of that available anywhere, do you?
Souris: No, but I can tell you what you wish to know
Panthere: Please.
Souris: It was just a short piece, ~5 minutes or so, and I came in after it had started. The central topic was, of course, how the west is paying for the east's reconstruction
Panthere: Which is true.
Souris: It briefly interviewed a few patrons at an Eastern sports club, I think, complaining about being out of work. Which led them to believe that it was the west's fault (not enough funds, you know the mind set)
Panthere: Well, they came from a culture where they weren't very free, but relatively secure, which they aren't anymore at all.
Souris: Shortly afterwards, it mentioned how the west isn't doing so great, either, due to business being offered subsidies to set up in poorer regions (such as anywheresville, east Germany).
Panthere: And West Germans resent that naturally, plus having to pay higher taxes and such.
Souris: A brief focus was made on Dresden, which is apparently being made into a showcase for the east. There's a lot of companies setting up there and it's doing better than some western areas (mention was made to some valley area, twice, but I didn't catch the name)
Souris: And yes, the resentment was touched upon, again with the sports club. They mentioned how they didn't feel welcome in the west when visiting away games
Souris: One of the patrons said quite openly that everyone would be better off with the wall back. You won't hear that viewpoint in western coverage :P
Souris: Western world, in that case
Panthere: Oh yes, you hear it from West Germans, too.
Souris: *nods* It must be mutual. I don't know how western Germany can put up with their situation... East Germany and the EU...
Panthere: And it's true, most West Germans aren't very welcoming to Easterners; they feel they're slackers who live of them.
Souris: Anyway, apart from a general overview of the problems resulting from the fall of the wall, they also had a sensible man give the reason for it
Panthere: Well, the rise of extremist parties in the last election is an indicator that people get fed up, I think.
Souris: That is, that Western Germany had 4+ decades to rebuild from the war, and Eastern Germany can't possibly expect the same standards after a mere quarter of that time
Souris: Hmm... That would be a good explanation for it, Miss
Souris: So, the news piece was very brief, but enlightening nonetheless
Panthere: I can explain what the cause for it all is, in one short sentence: That idiot former chancellor Kohl's ego mania.
Souris: Oh?
Panthere: Now shall I elaborate in more detail?
Souris: I'll need a few more sentences, yes :)
Panthere: What is/was basically the biggest mistake is that the decision for re-unification wasn't based on economical and social evaluation of the situation, but on political egotism: the not very intelligent "Birne" (so called based on his body-shape, though unlike a pear very wobbly :P) wanted to go down in history as the "Re-unification Chancellor."
Panthere: The person who had, after 45 years, "made Germany into one country again."
Souris: Ohhh... :(
Souris: Well, he'll go down in history, all right, if not how he schemed...
Panthere: But even at that time, economists and sociologists and a whole other bunch of assorted scientists were warning that a hasty reunification would backfire, as it has obviously done.
Souris: Far from being one country, it looks to me like Germany is going to need another 3 decades, at least, to make much progress
Panthere: The smart way - and most proposed way then, by non-politically allied thinkers - to have done that would have been through a long term plan, which would have allow a loose political association, while the economic systems of both parts would only gradually merge.
Panthere: That would have East German companies allowed to temporarily take advantage of lower standards for example in regards to environmental laws, and it would have allowed them to *slowly* switch from an all human workforce to the Western level of automatization.
Panthere: The latter leading not only to huge layoffs but to even bigger dept, if they could afford to go on operating at all and didn't have to close down for good.
Souris: Hmm... It sounds like that would've caused a great deal of unrest in the east, anyway?
Panthere: It would also have allowed subsidized housing to continue as it was in the East, and guaranteed kinder garden places, for example (which I think they West should copy - women were in several ways better of in East Germany than West Germany, where some rights were concerned.)
Panthere: It caused a great deal of dissatisfaction everywhere.
Souris: True...
Panthere: Naturally, there wasn't any great market for East German goods in the West, but it had a large part of the Eastern market - East Germany was the economical engine of the former Eastblock as much as West Germany was for Western Europe, only the economical level was different -
Panthere: and in a slower approach Western exports to the East (all of it, not just East Germany) could have been limited to support East German production for the adjustment period.
Panthere: Naturally, there is a great more stuff concerned than I can all list now, but there were viable suggestions on how to lower the reunification pain by spreading it out over time. But since 20 years from then Kohl wouldn't have been Chancellor anymore, he trashed them all.
Panthere: Again a case of millions suffering for one man's egotism.
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